Women should be silent in the church:

A common practice for women in the early church was to be silent in church; if they wanted to learn doctrine, they would ask their husbands at home. They married relatively young and raised families, taking care of the home. Even a woman today, in following this example would find a measure of happiness and contentment, having love for their children and reverence for their husbands, out of obedience to God.

- Steven

I trust you also require women to wear head-coverings and for men to have short hair as well?

Oh, and for heavens sake, don't let those women braid their hair, lest we invoke the wrath of God!

~Matt

That's an insinuated lie; I never said that.

- Steven

I know you didn't say that. Where did I say you did?

It can't be a "lie" unless I said something untruthful. It can't be "insinuating" unless I said it discreetly. Where did I say something untruthful in a discreet manner? I merely said "I trust..." and even had a "?" at the end.

{Edited to add: my last sentence in the previous post was somewhat sarcastic and in no way represents what you have said}

Perhaps I will rephrase my last post:

Do you also require women to wear head-coverings and for men to have short hair? Do you also not allow women to braid their hair?

Honestly wondering,
~Matt

Matt,

To your question, does it matter? What Biblical evidence do you have to prove or disprove my original statements?

Steven

Hi again Steven,

I'm not trying to prove or disprove your position. I'm just wondering if you're being consistent.

~Mat

If you're not going to back your wonderings, opinions, points or thoughts from the Scriptures, there is no more point in conversing with you.

Steven

Quoted from InquisitorKind: "I'm not trying to prove or disprove your position. I'm just wondering if you're being consistent."

And are you? I'm assuming you are taking these directives by Paul to be contextual. What standards do you have to judge these social dictums as being only for a certain group of people and not for Christianity as a whole?

Steven,

I already provided Scriptures. Did you click on the link?

They are self-explainatory. In each one Paul tells people to do something. Those things are those that I listed and asked if you believed.

This is an all or nothing case. If you believe women should sit in submission and silence from their husbands, you better get the razor out for those "long-hair dudes" and admonish your female friends for making braids in their hair and not wearing head coverings.

~Matt

Matt,

you have not provided scriptures to BACK UP your point, you have merely been facetious with the Word of God. If you are going to criticize the original point you better be able to prove or disprove with the Scriptures the original point. Instead, in your charade, you have created a straw-man.

- Steven

Sorry, Steven, I wasn't trying to disprove your post. My humor may be off, and if you are offended my last sentence in my first reply, I will retract it. The first question still stands.

Besides, why would I need to "BACK UP" my statements with Scripture when you didn't do that? I did the same thing you did, which was reference Scripture and make a point.

I'll ask the above questions again (about the braids, etc.), and add this one:

What Scriptural reasons do you have for why you believe what you do regarding the above questions?

I'm just wondering. In fact, if it suits you, I will promise not to interact on this thread again if you answer my question.

Let me know,
~Matt

I would emphatically assert that no woman should, as the Bible says, uncover her head while praying or prophesying. Instead, she should wear a head covering (1 Cor. 11). Likewise, I believe no man should have long hair, or it is a disgrace. Also, every woman should adorn herself with modesty, quietness, and gentleness, as is fitting a daughter of God. Whether or not they braid their hair is irrelevant to the command (cf. 1 Peter 3:3, 1 Cor. 14:35). They should also quietly submit to their husbands just as the church submits to the Christ (Ephesians 5:22-33, Colossians 3:18-19, Titus 2:5). I fully agree that all of these things should be practiced in the church. In fact, my sisters will practice these things when we go to church later on today, and it is only fitting that they do so.

Godspeed,
R. McIntyre

I will not require that she wear a head covering either. Show me in scripture where God or Christ will condemn me for NOT requireing her to do those things. The ignorance of mankind continues to place heavy burdens on Gods people. The burdens are always the same, meaningless and mindless.

In Genesis 3:16, God places a curse on Eve and all her future prodigy, pain in childbirth,and a desire for her husband and he will rule over her. This is a curse,not Gods intended way for the male-female relationship. Tis curse has not been lifted, but women may free themselves from it. All men who seek to rule over women, are practicing this curse, all women who submit to this rule, are in submission to this curse. Jesus is the freedom to all the curses writtened in the bible, even those God himself placed on mankind. Through Christ we are no longer bound by any curse. In Galations 4:30, 31 we are not children of the bondwoman, or the cursed woman, (Eve) but of the free woman (the church). Now chapt 5:1, it was for freedom Christ set us free, DO NOT BE SUBJECT AGAIN TO ANY YOKE OF SLAVERY, and believe me men will always seek to enslave women in all kinds of yokes. Women are free to speak in church and pray uncovered or wear braids. In marriage, Gal. 5:13,is the proper relationship, we are called to freedom, through love serve one another. Also Gal. 6:2, bear one anothers burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ.

In Gal.3:25, now that grace has come, we are no longer under a tutor, which means some kind of discipline- which is why the women were told to remain silent, it was a dsciplinary action, as was Gods original curse on Eve and her prodigy. Minor children need custodian, another meaning for "tutor". A woman in Christ needs no such thing from a man.

I have some speculation concerning this issue. Women are far more emotional then men, that is an assertion that is generally true. More importantly, women tend to base their decisions off of emotion. Jeremiah 17:9 says,"The heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things"

We cannot always trust our emotions because they can decieve us. In fact, I think it is a rather common occurence to be deceived by emotion. If we cant always trust emotion, and women often base their decisions off of emotion, then do we want them leading our churches or teaching doctrine?? Let me know what you think?

I pretty much agree with Steven on this one.

Joel

Maybe Steven is right, I dont know. If this were concerning salvation I'd be a little more adamant about my arguments and being right, but the fact is its not and I'm not as sure about this one as I am when it comes to what I believe about salvation.

Its been my experience with women that they are more emotional. It makes very good sense for someone who is "over emotional" not to be a leader of a great number of people. Its all speculation though and as to where it falls concerning universal truth, etc. I dont know.

I'm just hoping I can learn something about why Paul tells women to be silent?

What exactly is a woman's role in the Church, and in their home? Actually, my wife, under my covering, has written some fairly extensive articles for women in the church on these issues. I'd recommend men to read them with their wives and wives to read them with their husbands. Hopefully, anything that is written you will view in Light of Scripture.

The Modern Female - (a small article on some historical facts about feminism)
http://www.informationgospel.net/the_modern_female.htm

Wifely Role - (extensive article on the Christian married woman's role)
http://www.informationgospel.net/wifely_role.htm

Bible Studies - (what the Bible says about a woman's role in the church)
http://www.informationgospel.net/womans_bible_study.htm

The Children Article - (encouraging article for mothers)
http://www.informationgospel.net/the_children_article.htm

Why the issue of women usurping authority is Greek to everyone...
http://www.informationgospel.net/greek_meanings.htm

- Steven

Mans dominance over woman is there BECAUSE OF THE RESULT OF A CURSE. All the old and new testement marital theology is based on that curse. All you men who take pride in this dominance, you are doing so because of Eve being deceived. You who teach this dominance as if it is a God ordained "order", are deceiving yourselves and ignoring the curse. Women are ruled over by men, because God cursed them and put them in a submissive role. All efforts to keep women in that submissive, cannot be based on their emotional content, that is rubbish, it cannot be based on any spiritual content, that is pure rubbish, it cannot be based on intellectual content, that is silly, it cannot be based on scripture-- unless you base it on its true intent . If you want to be a man of God and rule over your woman, let her know your doing it because God cursed Eve. If you want to be a man who loves your wife, and need not limit her ,then free her from the curse. You free her from the curse by treating her, as you would her treat you. Give her the same freedom and priviledges you give yourself. I feel sorry for the women who are under any man who would hold a curse over her as a covering.

Mickiel,

That was a foolish parody. you have cheapened the marriage covenant to some curse. you must back your opinion up from the Scriptures.

The Scriptures indicate that marriage is a typology of our relationship with Christ; a man loves and cherishes his wife as Christ loves and cherishes the church. Are you calling the bride of Christ cursed? the one that Christ died for? Is that your devilish theology?

The reason why people like to change this doctrine is that people like to remain in their flesh; they know if they don't give into feminism, that they may go involuntarily celebrate in their marriages.

Genesis 3:16, God cursed marriage, show me where I did this, show me how i cursed the typeology of the church. You are just in denial, or smple misunerstanding. If you are not able to understand this simple scripture in Genesis, what good would any other do you. read the previous post i wrote concerning the two women typeology, one is the cursed woman, the OTHER is the blessed woman or the church. The free woman types the church,not the cursed woman, or the woman bound by submission. You are actually in error, yet you accuse me. Study this Steven; in Galations 4:22, Abraham has two sons, one by the bondwoman, or the women under the curse of Genesis, or you can call it the law-- all the laws you think govern your woman and marriage,since you are so obivious in labeling her as being "under your covering", and he had one by the "free woman", this s the woman that types the relationship with Christ, the free woman , the one you are afraid of being a femmeist, that is the powerful woman that types the church, not this silent submissive female that does your bidding. You are the one in error. You have the gull to request MORE scriptures from me and cannot see these i have given.

Still, i will honor the request.in Matt. 13:52, Mans true definition in marriage is given, he is the head of the household. Now, since you fear the free woman, let me ask you this; all of the household that men have abandoned, who is the head of those? Its the woman who stayed with her children, she is now the head of the household. The head of a household is a position male or female can fill. Because of the foolishness of men, women have been FORCED to fill it. Now Matt. 13:33, the wisdom of women is shown here, independant of a man. Often it is the woman who takes her stubborn mule of a man, like she would a peice of leaven, and works on the old goat until he matures into a man, in these situations, who does God consider the head of the household,who is the real leader? Don't ask the children, they will speak the truth you cannot see.

In Ephesians 5:22-28, Christ is the head of the "free Woman", the free womans submission is FIRST TO HIM, then to HER ENTIRE FAMILY, not just her husband. I told you to love your wife, treat her as you would yourself, this is shown in verse 28, love your wife as you would your own body, you would not tell yourself to be silent would you.

The fear of Jehovah is the beginning of knowledge; But the foolish despise wisdom and instruction. prov 1:7

How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? And scoffers delight them in scoffing, And fools hate knowledge?
23. Turn you at my reproof: Behold, I will pour out my spirit upon you; I will make known my words unto you.
24. Because I have called, and ye have refused; I have stretched out my hand, and no man hath regarded;
25. But ye have set at nought all my counsel, And would none of my reproof:
26. I also will laugh in the day of your calamity; I will mock when your fear cometh;
27. When your fear cometh as a storm, And your calamity cometh on as a whirlwind; When distress and anguish come upon you.
28. Then will they call upon me, but I will not answer; They will seek me diligently, but they shall not find me:
29. For that they hated knowledge, And did not choose the fear of Jehovah:
30. They would none of my counsel; They despised all my reproof.
31. Therefore shall they eat of the fruit of their own way, And be filled with their own devices.
32. For the backsliding of the simple shall slay them, And the careless ease of fools shall destroy them.
33. But whoso hearkeneth unto me shall dwell securely, And shall be quiet without fear of evil. prov 1:23-33

Mickiel :

• Mans dominance over woman is there BECAUSE OF THE RESULT OF A CURSE.

I personally don't view this as a matter of sin, but of choice. BUT when others ram it down your throat and call you unrighteous for NOT doing these things, i think that is heading towards sin. Its not a sin for anyone to remain silent or wear coverings, men or women. In 1Thess. 4:11, it is considered an ambitin to even study to be quiet, or make an effort to live a quiet life and mind your own business. If it makes a man and his wife happy for her to have to stand on her head in order to pray, thats THEIR business, but when they teach its Gods command and order for all relationships to be like that, i will disagree with that effort.

In Hebrews 13:4, marriage is to be held in a state of honor, nothing inor out of the bed should be defiled. A man should hold his wife in the highest esteem, women are not pets, some men treat their animals better than they do their wives. In verse 9 we are admonished not to be carried away by strange teachings. I think requiring women to cover their head, remain silent, is as strange as it gets. Men are using Judism to exert spiritual dominance over women, even claiming they cannot preach. All one has to do is listen to the annointing of Joyce Myers,and her annointed preaching throws that belief out the window. She preaches better than most men. I personally have doszensof female freinds who are annointed teachers and preachers, some pastors, so i have seen for myself the freedom from the curse of Genesis. I still maintain that all Judistic teachings on the marriage relationship, are based on that curse. Paul taught a greater level of relationship when he taught the couples to serve "one another" in equal partnership. Those men on top, want to stay on top,in fact i maintain that the creation of the feminist movement, is this doctrine of dominance itself and the brutish behavoir of the men who adhered to it. Women grew tired of men stepping on them just to elevate themselves, and got out from under the dominance, or the curse. I personally prefer women who are free of this slave mentality. I consider them the stronger, but each man to his own taste. Just don't try and tell me how to view a mariage relationship with some spiritual neanderthral nonsense.

Mickiel, you say that the idea that women should cover their heads or be silent is a "strange" idea, yet Scripture does say it, so offer why it is strange, when Scripture says it.

Not to mention. God's order is that woman should man, you may not like it, but that is the way it is. "Likewise you wives, be submissive to your own husbands..." (1 Pet 3:1) Tell me why that does not apply.

Joel

I do not agree with the Apostle Pauls view of women at times. I do not agree with the scripture saying this about women. I do not understand why God had Paul express this view, i am in total disagreement with it.

For anyone to cover their head to do anything spiritual, is just plain silly.And then to think that by doing it, it makes you more spiritual, is even more silly. Then to think that a particular race of people must cover their mouths, or that a particular gender must be silent, or that certain age groups cannot be baptized, or that the length of a mans hair bears spiritual significance, are all in my view just plain stupid. These are gnats that WE turn into eyebeams, meaningless rituals that we increase into die-hard ways of living. It is phariseical at its nature, all efforts to try to "appear" more righteous than the person really is. They are spiritual crtuches that handicapped people "need" in their lives to help their perceived walk with God. They are weights that actually hamper the persons view of God. God could careless about any of those issues, yet we have made them major facts of Christian life. It is simply majoring in the minors, and the people who use these for chrutches, cannot let tghem go or they will fall.

A common practice for women in the early church was to be silent in church; if they wanted to learn doctrine, they would ask their husbands at home. They married relatively young and raised families, taking care of the home. Even a woman today, in following this example would find a measure of happiness and contentment, having love for their children and reverence for their husbands, out of obedience to God.

God did not create women to be spiritual ostriches who stick their heads in the sand at church. You can try and measure out a certain level of happiness to a woman, as a person gives a dog a bone, but women deserve a full measure of happiness, nothing less, as they do a full measure of their roles in the church. The majority of churches are finanched by women, the majority of membership in churches are female, the majority of physical beings God created are female, no matter what area you research, mammals, animal life, inscect or amphibian, the majority is female. The majority of the american workforce is female, Christ ministry was partly finanched by women, femwles are too important of an intergral part of life to reduce them to secondary roles in family or church life. You don't reverance another human out of obedience to God, you honor them because you love them. The stuff you teach is thickening.

Mickiel,

So, how can I address your Biblical concern, and not your opinion?

- Steven

You cannot address what you cannot see. You are unable to see Genesis 3:16, you neither understand it or comprehend its meaning, if you did, i'm sure your beliefs would be different. I have poured out scripture after scripture, when you do that and the other person request scripture, it means they cannot see it. Or they don't want to. Show me any scripture concerning marriage that superseeds Genesis 3:16. You simply cannot, so you have chosen the approach of equateing the post i have made to my opinion, any post that are reduced to opinion can be ignored. Your evasion is brilliant, but i am accoustomed to such behavior, i see it all the time.

As long as women bear children in pain, as long as men sweat, as long as the ground gears thorns, women will be submissive to men, its all a curse. The bondwoman in Galations 4:22, is symbolic of this curse, get it - bondwoman-cursed woman-, the freed woman are those who are not condemned, Rom. 8:1, but free INDEED. You are afraid of the woman being loosed because you loose your presious dominance, and all your teaching concerning marriage has been in vain. Now, we wouldn't want that , would we? This is why you will not be able to see this post, you, by nature, cannot, only those who want truth beyound their comfort zone can see this type.

Mickiel,

Hold it! Am I reading right??? Are you saying you disagree with Scripture? I don't want to offend you, but are you a professing Christian? The Scriptures are infallible and inerrant and the only true source of truth, and if you say that you are disagreeing with what Scripture says, then you have some serious problems here. Your opinion is really not the issue. The Word of God is the issue. And it says that women are to be in submission to their husbands--not tyrannical submission--read Ephesians 5:22-33.

Please explain what you meant by the above: "I do not agree with the scripture saying this about women. I do not understand why God had Paul express this view, i am in total disagreement with it."

You create many straw men (or should I say, Straw women? sheesh) Sure, their are some men who abuse their authority over their wives, but in the Biblical model, men are to love their wives as their own flesh, and thus that authority should not be abused.

You have failed to disprove anything about that passage. Peter, under the inspiration of the 3rd Person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, wrote that women should be in submission to their own husbands--AND HE WROTE THIS AFTER CHRIST CAME! HE WROTE IT IN NT TIMES! So answer the passage. It clearly states that women are to be in submission to their husbands. I would much rather obey the words of Sacred Scripture than the words of mickiel on this matter.

Joel

"Those who revile authority are of the spirit of the Antichrist. Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft."

David O,

Good Point.

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord. 1 Corinthians 14:37

You may want to note the verse above, that Paul called all that he'd written there commandments of the Lord; it is a commandment and therefore not open to opinion or man's (or woman's) assertions.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." 1 Corinthians 14:33

God is not the author of confusion, its usually a man that brings confusion.

Contextually, Paul is setting down rules for the Corinthians, and all churches of the saints as well.

Contextually, Paul is speaking throughout these chapters setting down order in the Church as the commandments from the Lord which we abide by universally as the Church, despite those who would cause dis-order in the church by re-interpreting Paul's words to suit themselves.

1 corinth. 14:34. Let your women keep silence (sigao - to keep silent, hold peace)
in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; (laleo - utter words, talk, tell, utter)
but they are commanded to be under obedience,(hupotasso - be under obedience, put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submit self unto)
as also saith the law.

1 corinth 14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask (eperotao - to ask for, i.e. inquire, seek)
their husbands at home (oikos - a dwelling, by implication a family (more or less related, literal or figuratively)
: for it is a shame (aischron - a shameful thing, i.e. indecorum)
for women to speak in the church.

please note this: 1 corinth 14:38 " But if any man be ignorantagnoeo - not to know (through lack of information or intelligence); by implication, to ignore (through disinclination):
KJV--(be) ignorant(-ly), not know, not understand, unknown)

... let him be ignorant."

That is, that if anyone did not recognize the authority of Paul's teaching as being commandments of God then that one was not to be recognized as a legitimate servant gifted by God.