"Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any [man] will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Matthew 16:24

There are many modern 'Christians' that espouse, whether openly or secretly, in lifestyle or in word, that the road to Heaven is paved with gold. Most modern 'Christian' fellowships have continued this fantasy by making sure that every possible level of comfort is achieved for their parishioners: from the ambient temperature of the assembly hall, to the perfect pitch of the singers; from the eye-pleasing decor, to the pleasant, floral scents in the bathrooms; from the fresh baked goods and hot coffee, to the artistic Sunday services for children... all the way to the smooth speech of the pastor, whom starts each sermon with a joke and finishes with a penitent smile.

But, the Truth is, the way to Heaven is the Via Dolorosa, the road of suffering. As Jesus said, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross and follow Him. This cross is not felicitous for the apathetic, modern "Christian": it bears many splinters and weighs heavily upon the shoulders of the flesh; it is cumbersome and is seen by many and reproached by many. The road of suffering is not pleasing and is full of condemnation. It is a road on which one denies himself of earthly pleasures, cutting off whatever gets in the way of serving Christ. The road is life-long and arduous, and is paved with the rocks of the Earth.

The road of suffering ends at Golgotha, where Christ meets us, bearing our sin and death for us, giving us eternal life in the Kingdom of God, where the roads are indeed paved with the purest gold. On that Day, we shall be reconciled to God once and for all, and those whom brought shame and reproach to the name of Christ shall be judged. For, those whom chose the broad, golden road of earthly ease and comfort, they shall suffer for Eternity in outer darkness where Jesus said "there is weeping and gnashing of teeth", because they were ashamed of Jesus and His Gospel.

Again, which road are you on?

I must say, you cut to the quick. Too many people sugar coat things and say that Christianity is easy and nice in hopes of convincing people and say "If they like us, maybe they'll like Jesus"...

You have a way with words.

Uh, well.....I attend church at a pretty comfortable state of the art facility with an awesome, engaging (and completely sound bible preaching) pastor, wonderful children's services, comfortable seats, clean bathrooms, and the ubiquitous coffe and baked goods.

Honestly, I am having a hard time understanding how having decent facilities in which to worship the Lord has anything to do with my walk with Christ.

Would you prefer we worship the Lord in a shack? Shouldn't it matter more what is in our hearts than what our worship facilities are like?

Well, Amy, I think the point he is trying to make is that people go to church and expect it to be nice. Many might as well demand it! I see it in the churches I've gone to ... it's just another morning getting together with friends, and ... while we're here, let's sing a few songs and listen to that guy talk.

There isn't anything wrong with a comfortable atmosphere, per se. But why do you think there are so many tares? Persecution and difficulty (carrying your cross) purifies the Lord's Church. Complacency breeds laziness and false professions IMO.

I enjoy a cup o' coffee in the lobby with the rest of them, but I still see the flesh of the world in it all.

Another thought crossed my mind ... ya know that hypothetical situation (heh .. a reality in some countries) where someone comes into the church with a gun and says "renounce your faith or die!" Now that's purification. Not too many people would go to church if that were possible unless they really believe.

I wonder how many people would stop going to church if there weren't comfortable pews and hot coffee?

Acts 2:46-47
46Day by day continuing with one mind in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, they were taking their meals together with gladness and sincerity of heart, 47praising God and having favor with all the people And the Lord was adding to their number day by day those who were being saved.

i dunno.... they sounded pretty comfortable back then. the emphasis is on fellowshipping together praising God. the social aspect of Church is just as important. as for attending a Church that is comfortable... i see nothing wrong with it. beauty inside a Church reflects the beauty of nature all around us. God's gift to us.... He gave us eyes to enjoy the things around us. I can't imagine a better way to thank Him then making the place where we gather together to worship Him beautiful.

"For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."
Matthew 6:21, Luke 12:34

I understand that. We moved into our new church a year ago, and before that the the facilities weren't great. My kids went to class in four different buildings (talk about a chore getting everyone where they needed to be!)

But it didn't matter to me what the facilities were like. What mattered was that I was being fed a solid and sound message from God's Word every single week and that we were all coming together to worship the Lord.

And I guess that's the trouble I have with this generalization about where people go to church. The church I go to is the MOST active church I have ever seen....with evangelism, Bible classes, other related classes, training, ministry, community service, etc.

Our pastor preaches straight from the Bible. There are no fluffy self-help "sermons", no feel good messages. It is solid preaching straight from the Word. Just because my pastor is engaging (and funny) that doesn't mean he isn't committed to upholding the integrity of God's Word.

I just don't see how it matters. My walk with the Lord is no different when we were in the other facilites. I have actually grown tremendously in my faith at the new church (just as I would have at the old one).

It is what's in my heart that is important. And it goes without saying, I have a deep love and passion for the Lord, no matter what building I walk into each week.

I think there are tares in all churches, unfortunately.

Quote from Steven: "For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also."

Can you please clarify your point in posting this? It seems as if you are saying my heart is in a building, and I want to know how you would know that.

Humbled,

Well, actually, the New Testament Church met in homes, fields, etc... they met wherever they could in order to meet together, with looming persecution always around the corner. Today, we meet with the looming thoughts of "How can we build a bigger church to get a higher profile and attract more people?"

However, there are churches, such as in Africa, that do meet in "shacks". Do we look down our noses at them, saying "well, because they don't have air conditioning they aren't as blessed as us."?

Here's a thought: maybe God has cursed US and blessed THEM... for, their blessings are eternal and ours are but a distraction away from Christ.

Quote from Steven: "No clarification needed. I simply quoted what Jesus had to say. Take it up with Him."

That's not necessary. Discuss with folks without all that sort of thing.

Project Peter,

Is this not the Bible Chat? We discuss the Bible, so I have every right to quote a Scripture as an answer. What sin have I committed by quoting the words of Jesus, the author and finisher of our faith?

Start a thread in the Chat to Mod's forum UP and we will take it up there and I will explain it to you clearly.

"Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand." Romans 14:4

What have I been banned for?

So you would talk with Project Peter privately. He will be along after a bit.

When a moderator asks you to start a thread in Chat to the Moderators, it is a courtesy to you to keep you from being cooled. That way you can keep posting while a conversation is had privately (that doesn't concern the rest of the membership). You have been cooled because you did not take advantage of that courtesy.

In fact, you have been cooled, not banned. This language is default to the software and outside our control. You are not banned but your open board posting privileges have been temporarily suspended so we can talk privately.

Project Peter will be along shortly.

You haven't been banned. But you have been restricted for now to this particular forum until we can come to some understandings. Let me tell you firstly... had you of just responded to my request to post in the chat to moderator forum... that would have made things much easier.

Now... here's the drill. A lot of folks have no problem with much of your message. But your delivery of that message is lacking anything to do with love, patience, etc... you know... that whole fruits of the Spirit.

Your attitude is what got you here. That has to change for you to stay on this board.

So, what is your point outside of your personal bias?

Since I read that you are married in your profile I assume then that you are not a teenager. What do you think my point is?

Yes, I have been married ten years; yes, I have been educated and I have been in the Lord nearly twenty years. I have been in ministry most of the years I have known the Lord, but I know you didn't sequester me in order to grill me about my age.

What, exactly, did you want to hear? Is that why you pulled me into this room, to talk of what you deem to be the fruit of the spirit, or did you specifically want to point out a sin?

If not, I appeal to the site administrator to stop this personal vendetta that you've been waiting to fulfill from the moment I first posted on this forum.

The reason you are here is because of your attitude with other people in the forum. I thought I covered that in my first post. Your response to Whispering Grace was totally out of line.

As to my "personal vendetta"... why would you think that? Because I disagreed with you on a post of yours? That's pretty silly. There are many folks in here that I strongly disagree with and I don't bother folks as long as they stay within the board rules and play nice. You aren't playing nice.

What specific response was "totally out of line" regarding Whispering Grace?

Oh let's see... I figure a good bet would be that it was the post that I warned you about that began this little escapade.

If you want to keep playing this silly game then that's up to you. But were we to just cut through all the nonsense... perhaps we can make some headway. Your call.

Why not try actually posting said offensive reply so we can all see what you are talking about?

If you have children then I assume that you teach them to use the word please?

I am a site admin. There is no personal vendetta here. Please work through this with ProjectPeter in the good faith that we all want to see you back posting on the open board.

I'll go ahead and say this just to make it clear to you. Your assumption that I have something against much of your message is wrong. You and I are probably very similar in many ways actually. We do the same type ministry as well although you, being in California, have a bit more opportunity than I about six months out of the year.

When it comes to the church as we know it today... we even share many of the very same concerns and in many ways the very same passions. So your thinking that I am "against you" is dead wrong.

Here is what I am against. If anyone has a disagreement with you... you don't treat them with any respect. You show no patience in any of your responses. You berate them and you use the Bible as your choice of whipping tool. If someone ask you a question for clarification then you treat that person as if they are attacking your message and you respond in kind as mentioned above.

This is a discussion board. Your website and your blog is your pulpit on the WWW. Not this message board. Here you can certainly preach... but when folks ask you questions and when folks have a bit of disagreement with you then you are to respectfully respond back to them. In other words you need to discuss. If your aim is only to preach and not discuss... then you have no need of this discussion board. It really is as simple as that. And when a moderator tells you to chill out... that is not for debate nor will you attempt to spank them with whatever passage you chose to elevate you to that place you believe to be the high road.

If you can abide by this then perhaps you'll do right well here. If you cannot abide by that then you'll not do well here.

You have accused me of: not being in the Spirit, of being rude, disrespectful, impatient, "out-of-line", immature and un-loving. And yet, you have not provided on this thread one shred of evidence of these evil boasts.

You say that we are alike; well, let me say this: I would not bring a railing accusation against a Brother without having some sort of evidence to back it up.

There is no rule on this forum that says you cannot answer a question with a Scripture, (hence the title "Bible Chat") regardless of any bias.

I appeal to someone whom will produce evidence of me being "rude, impatient, disrespectful and un-loving" on my latest posts that would warrant such a spurious accusation against me.

In addition, I think it is quite audacious of you to be posting on my threads, when you know that I cannot respond, Project Peter.

Why haven't you notified people on my threads that I am currently unable to respond, due to being subjected to this "cooling off" period?

I have read a lot on your website and your blog. You might be surprised to know that much of what you say, I agree with. I think your delivery is a bit abbrassive but there is a place and time for that too. You being in California... I can understand why you are tough with the message.

Let's start over here for a second and see if we can first at least get to a point where we can speak to each other as two men out on the same mission.

I see you do a lot of street work... I as well. Why do you think I have a personal vendetta against you? I vaguely remember when you first came to the forum and you posted a lot of messages that were against the "organized" (for lack of a better term) church. I remember even asking you some questions because of that bone you seem to have against the organized church because I was curious as to what you were doing to help fix it as opposed to simply being a part of the problem. But not exactly sure how it is that this begins a vendetta. Let's start there... what did I say that makes you think that I would intentionally target you? Maybe we should clear that up and then perhaps we can actually have a discussion that bears some fruit.

It is very simple, even your phrase just now describing what I say as having a "bone" with the organized church, is indicative of your bias. I do not have a "bone" against The Church. However, I definitely have an issue with those whom "play church".

If you have read all my articles, you'd know I cover a wide range of topics, from apologetics to theology to evangelism.

But, this is the crux of the issue: you have me in here, not because I was rude, but because I am not saying what you like to hear; if I was indeed rude, you've yet to show evidence of such.

If you had all these questions, why not just email me? But, no, it must be a public show.

Now... since you are one who judges rightly then judge this. How does what you just did right there meet with the standard of Scripture? A lady ask you a very simple question in regard to your post and you did in fact use Scripture to make a blanket judgment or toss out a caution. It could have been either way at first. But then your response made it clear that it was in fact a judgment that you had made and the comment was very short of any patience or grace.

So even if you think Whispering Grace is simply against you... let me do a bit of righteous judment. You aren't acting like a true bond-servant of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


Now I understand that folks can get caught up in the heat of a discussion... problem is though... you come out of the chute like this. The discussion had just started.

That is as much as I am going to dig up and show you because it is enough. This has often been your style in the periods of time that you decide to pop into the forum. You weren't called in here for giggles but because of this attitude. Now here are the options and it isn't going to be one of those things that we go round and round with. It requires a simple "yes I can" or "I will not" answer.

Do you agree to tone this stuff down? And when a moderator tells you to tone it down that isn't for discussion on the open board. If you have a problem with a moderator then you can take it to the Chat to Moderator forum. When a moderator tells you to knock it off then that is not to be ignored or a passage of Scripture tossed out as if that negates the warning of the moderator. It does not. Can you do that?

Quoted from Project Peter: "Now... since you are one who judges rightly then judge this. How does what you just did right there meet with the standard of Scripture?"

The same way that Jesus answered the Pharisees with Scripture. I am not greater than He.

"Then the Pharisees and scribes asked him, Why walk not thy disciples according to the tradition of the elders, but eat bread with unwashen hands? He answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men." Mark 7:5-8
 

Quoted from Project Peter: "But then your response made it clear that it was in fact a judgment that you had made and the comment was very short of any patience or grace."

Of course I made a judgment. I made a right judgment by the words she said, and answered her with the Holy Scriptures. Have you not read:

"All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works."

Am I to understand that you do not judge, hypocrite? You have been judging me with ridicule in this very room, and it is the type of judgment that the Scripture condemns, about not judging another man when you do the same thing.

Quoted from Project Peter: "So even if you think Whispering Grace is simply against you... let me do a bit of righteous judment. You aren't acting like a true bond-servant of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:24 And the Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
25 with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
26 and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will."

In the quote above you said I was quarrelsome: the word in the Scripture above is machomai - meaning "to fight a) of armed combatants, or those who engage in a hand to hand struggle b) of those who engage in a war of words, to quarrel, wrangle, dispute c) of those who contend at law for property and privileges"

What part of the Scripture, that I answered WG with, was 'quarrelsome', or a 'war of words'? Which part of gentle, patient or kind did I violate by quoting God's Word?

Quoted from Project Peter: "This has often been your style in the periods of time that you decide to pop into the forum."

And you say you are not biased, yet my 'style' is in question. I did not sin nor did I violate the Scriptures with my 'style'.

Regarding the Scripture I posted in reply to your post, you did not identify yourself as a monitor; I had no knowledge you were a monitor at all, in fact you are not listed on the Bible Chat Forum as a monitor. Instead of making that clear, you jumped at the opportunity to get me in here.

I have no problem abiding with the rules and talking with a monitor in a private room. However, one must identify themselves as a monitor if they need that show of respect.

It is apparent that any further discussion with you is but an exercise in futility. I will discuss this with the other moderator's and admin of the forum and then I will let you know your status.

Have a great day and weekend.

We're going to give this one more effort. I hope that's worth something to you. Please understand that I will be the only one speaking with you now and that my time is limited. Let's get through this, brother.

With prayerfulness, I propose to you that your posts are often sarcastic (as you have admitted in other threads) and demeaning of other members of the board (and Christ's Body). Since this does not serve any positive purpose (it tends to polarize and push folks away from listening to you), would share with me what it is you are trying to accomplish here at Bibleforums. Perhaps then we can come up with an approach that would lend itself better to your posts.

PastorMark,

I appreciate your willingness to review this. In honest evaluation, I am uncertain as to what some people's complaint is against me, other than the un-favorable content I pull from the Scriptures and the direct way that I present said content.

I do not know if the issue is so much about 'sarcasm', more than it is about me being un-apologetically direct with the truth. Now, do I use some of what we call "sarcasm"?

Sarcasm means: 1. a sharp and often satirical or ironic utterance designed to cut or give pain 2 a : a mode of satirical wit depending for its effect on bitter, caustic, and often ironic language that is usually directed against an individual.

I never intend to be sarcastic, as defined above, with a personal attack, to give personal pain. However, the Pharisees could have viewed what Jesus said as being "sarcastic", even embittered against them, because of the of direct way He condemned them of their sins and hypocrisy. (Matthew 23)

Paul the Apostle, in communicating the Gospel, had similar issues with Festus, whom tells Paul he is puffed up with knowledge, saying: "And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad!" (Acts 26:24)

Paul answers: "But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness."

So, Paul's emphasis was truth and soberness, that he was speaking the absolute, certain truth; he was very direct with Festus and was perceived as being arrogant, mad with knowledge, or in today's language "judgmental and high-minded". Paul was not any of those things, but was direct with the Truth and sober in approach.

There was no sarcasm or intended sarcasm in my reply to Whispering Grace; as a rule I am not personally sarcastic (as intending to bring pain) with people, lest I add an offense to the Scriptures. The only time I would use anything like sarcasm is when I know the person I am speaking to is aware that I am joking, not seriously trying to make some doctrinal point.

Am I infallible? Absolutely not. Are all my writings without spot or blemish? No. Have I addressed everyone just perfectly as Christ would? No, I have not. No different than any other saved-by-grace-through-faith poster on the forum; but, to condemn me because I am direct, when some personally think that my 'style' can be construed as offensive, to some, is not a valid reason to attempt to ban me. I would say that some posters on this board have a smooth, feminized, hippy-dippy, thespian-pastoral 'style' that is offensive to me, but you don't hear me personally attacking them because of their "style", but I will debate them Scripturally over their substance/ doctrines.

With WG I was direct; I used a Scripture to answer her, a Scripture which I felt was the perfect answer to her question; when she would not hear that, and demanded a better response from me, I referred her back to the author, whom happened to be Jesus; it was not a joke, and I was not trying to tear her a new one. If that was the case I would have indeed been "sarcastic" in a personal attack, as we have seen even in this forum that many do. Whether with a smile, or a foaming mouth, they go right for the throat on a personal level.

With all that said, please understand I am not going to stop writing articles with the conviction of the Spirit, nor will I jeopardize my conscience because I am afraid of what someone might think; the articles may feel like salt being poured on an infected wound, and may not "feel good", but the salt remedies the infection.

I am more than willing to discuss my posts in a respectful manner with any moderator in a private room, if necessary.

What bothers me is that I have been sequestered into this room three or four times over very light-in-substance issues. Perhaps, and this is my personal opinion, you should evaluate the "sensitivity" level of your judgments and maybe focus your attention more on those whom come in with aberrant and un-biblical doctrines, and less on judging what you 'think' or 'feel' about someone's motives or "style".

Pastor Mark, I look forward to talking with you in future, hopefully in less "irregular" circumstances.

Blessings,
Steven, fellow worker in Christ.

You're welcome. To be clear however, it is not me; it is the entire moderating staff that is putting forth this willing effort. I am happy to hear it's going to be an honest evaluation. I'll put in the same effort.

Quoted from Steven: "but, to condemn me because I am direct"

This is not the case on two counts. First, no one has condemned you. I understand your sensitivity to this though. Often the thing we struggle with ourselves is the very thing we see as most problematic in others. Many of the others have tried to get you to speak your mind in a clearer manner. In their effort to understand you and be a benefit to you, you sometimes turn on them as though they are the enemy. They are not. We are not. I am not.

Second, you are not here because of your directness. You are here because you refused to speak with a moderator in Chat to Mods when the request was made... even though you say you are willing

Quoted from Steven: "I am more than willing to discuss my posts in a respectful manner with any moderator in a private room, if necessary."

I don't know what your irritation with Project Peter might be (and at this point, that isn't the issue) but he is a moderator here. In other words, he has been given authority here by God. Please afford him the same courtesy you would me. He cares for you as a brother.

Quoted from Steven: " some personally think that my 'style' can be construed as offensive, to some, is not a valid reason to attempt to ban me."

No one is attempting to ban you. Were that the case we would not be having this conversation or you any other posts on this message board. It takes about 15 seconds at the most to ban someone. Our intention is, as you can see by our taking considerably longer than 15 seconds with you, is quite the opposite. We'd like to see you continue on this board.

Before I pursue this further, I want to be sure we're on the same page so far. Are we?

Quoted from PastorMark: "you are not here because of your directness. You are here because you refused to speak with a moderator in Chat to Mods"

As I said to Project Peter, I did not know he was a moderator until the threads were locked; he did not identify himself as a moderator; he also was not listed as a moderator at the top of Bible Chat, the forum I was on at the time

Quoted from PastorMark: he is a moderator here. In other words, he has been given authority here by God.

Neither you, nor the moderators, nor the site admins have any authority or power, other than what God wills. If God wills that I should be banned, not you, nor anyone else can stop it; on the same token, if God wills that I should continue, not you, nor any other mod, nor the admins are going to be able to stop it.

Quoted from PastorMark: "Often the thing we struggle with ourselves is the very thing we see as most problematic in others."

I'm not quite sure what you meant by this statement, and honestly I don't want to know the intent of such a babbling theorem (no personal sarcasm intended); if your goal here is somehow to encourage, rebuke, correct or to give instruction, you may try using the Scriptures instead of this self-centered-psychology from a bitter well: (again no personal sarcasm intended, speaking generally and corporately.)

"In order to go left you gotta go right, if you don't master your rage your rage will be your master, if you can balance a tack-hammer on your head you can head off your enemy with a balanced attack..."

"You catch more flies with honey, its not what you say but how you say it, you're so heavenly minded you're no earthly good..."

But, we've covered this ground before haven't we?

Regarding taking such considerable time and arduous effort to deal with me: looking at your statistics, most of you moderators have many thousands of posts and are almost on the board 24/7. So, what's a few thousandths of a post worth of time for any of you, unless you feel I somehow require 'extra' concentration...

Other than the few things I brought up above, I believe we are on the same shelf...

Steven

In fact, we are not even in the same section of the library. I am sorry that my intent to do you good is construed as babble. I will offend you no longer...nor I suspect will anyone else until you are ready.