Responses to Find the Local Church from a Theological Discussion Board

A reply to Find a local church by a chatter named “Dave”:

It's one big rant about how he doesn't like the 'modern church' whatever that is. It seems to me this guy got hurt at some point in his spiritual life and is now lashing out. But really, it reminds me of another article I read where someone criticized existing churches and placing all sorts of blame on various 'institutional' churches. All blame and no fixes. Same with this article.

Peace,
Dave

Steven replied:

Your opinion is ok, and interesting, but if you are going to rant at someone, do it with the Scriptures, so that your words will have a measure of validity.

Steven

The following is a reply by another writer, to above post, on same topic, by Benjamin on 06/17/2004:

But other than the fact that the "fixes" are obvious--being found in the Scriptures quoted--it is a very good start to at least point out something is wrong by comparing modern Christian church culture to the Bible. A lot of evangelicals won't come close to admitting something is very wrong here. Rather, they pretend everything is perfect and joyful, and blessed.

What really turns me off about many churches I've been to, is when they have so many obvious problems and deficiencies, but pretend everything is perfect and put on a face of blessedness. Yet who else is going to take charge over people's spiritual lives if not their church leadership who ignore the problem? Their pride keeps them from truth. Their lie keeps them from truth. How can any spiritual work be done in such churches, for though they pretend they are alive, they are dead. They have either lost, or never had their first love for the LORD. Anyone who comes into their midst who believes Scripture and makes a stand for it, is shunned by the majority.

It bothers me when preachers lower the standard of what it means to be a disciple of Christ. But eventually I've come to realize they really don't know what it means to be a disciple of Christ. In fact, when you gently tell them what it means, they look at you in horror. I'm not exaggerating. I've seen my younger sister go through that exact experience with a Youth Pastor after giving her testimony.

They think and often preach, that being a Christian is being someone who has prayed a sinners prayer. Anything more than that is labeled "legalism" or "salvation by works." Whatever happened to, "The righteous shall live by faith."

It bothers me when church leaders are not willing to preach obvious truths in Scripture, but instead follow generally accepted, pop theology- much of which used to be considered heresy in the past!

It bothers me when Pastors pretend to preach from The Bible, but instead just interject their own theology into the text, calling passages that are simple, "difficult." If you hear a passage called "difficult" be on guard and take a step back from what's being said. Because often enough, the speaker will proceed to explain away the passage rather than explain it. Or better yet, believe it.

It bothers me when Pastors choose the topics that they think will get people interested in coming to their church, yet ignore the Scriptures that will scare all the unrepentant away from church. Once we learn to scare the unrepentant away by preaching the truth, like Jesus often did, then we will be separate from the world, and able to edify those who love God and hate the world.

It bothers me when Pastors preach through a passage of Scripture, yet seem to somehow miss its very point through all their "explanations." They are supposedly exegeting the passage, yet they only focus on the few points they want to, and skip what the passage is focusing on. They are using Scripture to promote their own preconceived ideas. It becomes clear that they really don't know the Scriptures, but instead, have memorized the beliefs of their culture, and exchanged the truth for a lie. This is a very sad thing. For the best way to obscure truth, is to have it right in front of you, and preach around it as if it isn't there.

What is the average Christian to do? Everyday Christians, like myself, have spent years learning from the LORD, to become independently minded enough to actually believe what the Scriptures say and emphasize, rather than what the Christian culture, and indeed our own Pastors say and emphasize. If Pastors would only exegete Scripture by focusing on emphasizing the things that Scripture emphasizes! What a refreshing delight to the souls of their flock it would be! To drop the secular academic attitude and be humble enough to preach a less than professional sermon, in order to connect with humanity, and to be human. To be heart to heart and mind to mind. To "know nothing but Christ and Him crucified." To be among their flock in weakness and fear and much trembling (1 Cor. 2). Jesus sheep hear His voice. Jesus guarantees in John, that we will have persecutions, because He did. But that they will listen to our message, because they listened to His.

The solution to the modern church's problems is simple. The truth of Scripture needs to take center stage, rather than the generally accepted theological beliefs of our age. We must tremble at God's Word, rather than glossing over it. We must Preach it and constantly encourage our people to be excited about reading it, believing it, living it, learning it, memorizing it, and getting it into their hearts.

Yet instead of this, we are often brainwashed into following the crowd instead of Christ. In many mainline circles, a Christian would be considered really edgy and weird if he doubted the rapture comes before the tribulation. But if he consumed hours of garbage TV a night, he might just fit right in.

Paul wrote, "Give attention to the public reading of Scripture."

Do we do this? We need to. To give attention to it. Let it stand on its own feet. Scripture is compared to a sword. A sharp double edged sword. We need to learn to be skilled in it's use rather than to put tape on its edges and exchange our own words for the words of God.

There is more wrong with the church than what I saw mentioned in the article Steven presented. There are major sin issues taking place in the lives of many of the people who on Sunday morning are raising their hands in "worship."

Galations says. "God is not mocked. Whatever a man sows, that he shall also reap." Eternal life or corruption, the choice is set before us for everyone to make.
Sin is very dangerous stuff, yet often in church, I hear so much sympathy on sin, that it becomes almost a good thing in people's minds. Sin abounds, grace increases.

Yet James says, "Do you not know that friendship with the world is hatred towards God?" One translation uses the word "hostility."

I grew up in all sorts of churches. I never heard that once. I heard,
"Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." quite a few times.

What does that catchphrase really mean? And is that or is that not the message of Scriptures?

Let's see.... Ephesians says, "Be Holy for I am Holy."

True worship is the presentation of oneself to the LORD. (Rom. 12:1-2)

Growing up, seeking God's truth, I heard continually, a constant stream of sympathy with sin, and that we are sinners. I heard how long and slow the process of sanctification was. I heard that everyone sins and "there's no way around it." I heard "we all sin daily." I've even heard one time- and this is a quote, "We all sin and fall short of the glory of God." This quote was attributed to be the message of Romans 3:23. He said that because "we all sin," I was supposed to be encouraged about my own sin problems and not let them get me down.

I heard all this nonsense.

I never heard:

"Submit therefore to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you. Draw near to God and He will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands you sinners; and purify your hearts, you double minded. Be miserable and mourn and weep; let your laughter be turned into mourning and your joy to gloom." (Jas. 4)

The Scriptures are clear. These things, and all the things of God, are not theologically perceived, they are spiritually perceived. It comes down to a matter of putting first things first so that our spiritual perceptions are attuned.

This is what is first.

If anyone would follow Christ, let him take up his cross daily, and follow Him. Let him count the cost, then deny himself and follow the LORD wherever He goes. In doing this, he will become clear in his heart and the Holy Spirit will lead him into all truth, in the Holy Spirit's timing. He should not rush forward into where God is not leading Him. Let Him be where his master is, and not lag behind or run ahead. Let him defy the world and follow God's path.

Many Pastors, because they have not put surrender to all of God's will and word first, have run into biases, errors, false missions, false mission statements, and false paths. Their loyalty is not ultimately to Christ, though they would like to think it is. They are not effective or blessed in their work, because they are not working for the LORD, but rather, using the LORD for their own ambitions.

Sin runs deep, but the realization of these things in a Pastor's life, may cause him to realize, that he was never called of God to be a Pastor in the first place. And that further, God is calling him to step down. If he realizes this, he must sacrifice his career, step down, and follow Christ into poverty if that is what it means.

If instead of following the LORD with all of our heart and soul and mind and strength, we are instead, merely interested in theology, philosophy, arguing, in being right, or in changing the things we personally don't like- then we need to realize that Scripture says that knowledge puffs up but love builds up. Jesus says, "Follow me." Where is our loyalty? To some cause, or to some mission of our own? No matter how good, it is not good enough. We are saints. And saints are bondservants of the Lord Jesus Christ. Nothing less.

We are servants of Jesus Christ, God.

As His servants, it is better to be silent than to act without love, no matter what you know. (1 Cor. 13) The Lord's bondservant must not be quarrelsome. He must be able to teach and patient when wronged. (2Tim. 2)

Our motive in all these things, our motive in standing for truth- is not a passion for any specific pet doctrine, but rather, for the worship and glory of our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ. Our motive is to do His work in people's lives. To bring them closer to Him. To purify His bride. See Titus 2. We are to be a pure people, zealous for good works. We are His possession, and our bodies are His temple.

If we are following anything less than Jesus Christ, no matter how noble it seems, be it a church, a set of beliefs, or our own ego, then we need to let it go and humble ourselves down in repentance. We need to take a hold of purity and truth, and to set aside materialism, worry, arrogance, and lust. To spit on the world's vanity and be bold, caring, humble, and kind. To believe in the power of prayer by believing in the power of God. To not come to Him in human arrogance, but in fear. For the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom.

Easier said than done? No, for these things are easier done than said. First you must do them, then say them. The answer is in believing in the power of God's gospel. The power that raised Christ from the dead works in us! We must not be unbelieving but believing.

Take His yoke upon you, for it is easy and His burden is light. He has taken the weight of sin. We don't war according to the flesh, but in the power of Christ, by the weapons of righteousness that are divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.

We are New Creations in Him. By His power, and by His death, we are already made free from sin, because we are dead to it. It's nailed to the cross. Let us realize this, put it all aside, and be renewed in the spirit of our minds through faith. Put on Christ and make no provision for the flesh. Then pray, and seek faith, hope and love. If we keep these three things in constant mind, then truth will take a hold of our lives and we will storm the gates of hell with a passion that calls death better than life!

There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, has set you free from the law of sin and death. Those who are in Christ Jesus are set free from sin's power over their lives.

They are forgiven. Their sins are thrown into the depths of the sea. By drinking the blood and eating the flesh of Jesus Christ, we are purified by Him. Not only this, but we are free of sin. We are dead to it and should not be bound by it any longer. Free! We are free! Amazing love, how can it be, that my God would die for me. Let's get the message of Scripture. What does Romans 8:1-4 mean? Read it, you might be surprised.

The gospel is exciting, fresh, beautiful. That we could have eternal life! So many don't even know they are alive. Yet in Christ we have life, and have it abundantly. Let us glory in our weaknesses so that His strength may rest on us. By His strength all things can be done. And He can do abundantly more than we ask or think, through His power that works in us (Eph. 3).

Let us not adopt the cultural attitudes of this world, or of much of the modern church in our hearts. Instead we should sing songs of praise to God, making melody in our hearts to Him. Rejoicing in Him. The world is wrong. They are stupid and foolish. We have life, and should glory in it.

The world has no peace. But we have peace from God that transcends understanding. If we will believe in Him and follow His voice, we will find this peace leading us into good works and away from even the most subtle sin. He is not hard to hear, if we will but listen. His voice is only heard by those who listen.

Even if all seemed well with modern Christianity, should not the modern church be aware that Scripture says- Because of the increase of wickedness, in the last days, the love of most will grow cold. Because of this passage alone, not to mention all the others, shouldn't we be on guard?

Yet most of us are not on guard, though all is far from well. Yet if we will humble ourselves and pray, then He will hear us and heal us. We must repent of our sins, for the kingdom of God is in our midst.”

Send a question or comment on the above piece to Benjamin

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