| |
Introduction; This debate was originally
posted on a theology forum, discussing Homosexuality
| Original Post by
Steven: God wishes that none
would perish but that all would come to repentance. God has
shown love by condemning all homosexuals to eternal damnation;
His righteous decree has found homosexuality to be an
abomination and has in the past brought fire down on men, women
and children because of it.
Any thoughts?
- Steven |
| Are you implying
that the world was flooded entirely because they were all
homosexuals too? Or are you now realizing you are not being very
consistent.
- yxboom - monitor |
| Only that I
think one must distinguish between "homosexuality" (which many
define as simply being attracted to people of the same gender)
and homosexual acts. Hypothetically, of course, a person
could struggle with homosexual feelings and live a lifestyle of
repentence as a Christian. Many people would define this person
as a "Homosexual."
-hamster - monitor |
hamster and
yxboom,
it clear from Scripture that no one who is a homosexual is going
to enter the Kingdom. If you are homosexual, you are not a
believer in Christ. The scripture absolutely condemns any such
behavior, period.
" Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom
of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor
idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual
offenders..." 1 corinth 6:9
- Steven |
You need to read
that verse in context. Verse 12 says that when we were saved, we
were washed, and are no longer these things. Not because we
stopped doing them, but because our identity is now found in
Christ, and not in our flesh.
Thus, a person could have homosexual urges, and still be a
Christian, just as a heterosexual could look lustfully on a
woman not his wife, and still be a Christian.
Michael - themuzicman |
themusicman,
Actually that was verse 11, not 12. Your Biblical context is
about as acurate as your avatar.
Verse 11 says " You WERE".. 'en' in the Greek meaning 'I (thou,
etc.) was (wast or were)'. In other words its all past tense,
not present or future. We were 'washed', apolouo which means 'to
wash fully, i.e. (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively)';
remitted, as commonly defined means: 'to desist from (an
activity)'. Have you not read verse 15, where it says 'shall I
unite them with a harlot? God forbid..'
Who are you to re-interpret Scripture to please your own flesh?
you might want to note romans (quoted at the end of this post)
in light of your unsound, feminized theology.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus,
and by the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not
expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be
brought under the power of any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall
destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication,
but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up
us by his own power.
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?
shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the
members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is
one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the
body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own
body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your
own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in
your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 corinth
6:9-20
8. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all
the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by
their wickedness,
19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them.
20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that
men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and
their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with
one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever
praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even
their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations
with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men
committed indecent acts with other men, and received in
themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to
retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved
mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil,
greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife,
deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful;
they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do
such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these
very things but also approve of those who practice them. Rom.
1:18-32
- Steven It says "homosexual offenders" -- e.g. people who
engage in homosexual activities. Being attracted to the same
gender isn't an "activity".. it's just a temptation. Are you
saying that someone who has homosexual feelings/temptations but
does their best to steer clear of acting on them while living in
repentence can't be a "True" Christian?
- hamster - monitor |
themusicman,
Actually that was verse 11, not 12. Your Biblical context is
about as acurate as your avatar.
Verse 11 says " You WERE".. 'en' in the Greek meaning 'I (thou,
etc.) was (wast or were)'. In other words its all past tense,
not present or future. We were 'washed', apolouo which means 'to
wash fully, i.e. (figuratively) have remitted (reflexively)';
remitted, as commonly defined means: 'to desist from (an
activity)'. Have you not read verse 15, where it says 'shall I
unite them with a harlot? God forbid..'
Who are you to re-interpret Scripture to please your own flesh?
you might want to note romans (quoted at the end of this post)
in light of your unsound, feminized theology.
"Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus,
and by the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not
expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be
brought under the power of any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall
destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication,
but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.
14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up
us by his own power.
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?
shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the
members of an harlot? God forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is
one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the
body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own
body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy
Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your
own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in
your body, and in your spirit, which are God's." 1 corinth
6:9-20
8. The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all
the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by
their wickedness,
19. since what may be known about God is plain to them, because
God has made it plain to them.
20. For since the creation of the world God's invisible
qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been
clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that
men are without excuse.
21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as
God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and
their foolish hearts were darkened.
22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with
one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever
praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even
their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations
with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men
committed indecent acts with other men, and received in
themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to
retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved
mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil,
greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife,
deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30. slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful;
they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31. they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32. Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do
such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these
very things but also approve of those who practice them. Rom.
1:18-32
- Steven It says "homosexual offenders" -- e.g. people who
engage in homosexual activities. Being attracted to the same
gender isn't an "activity".. it's just a temptation. Are you
saying that someone who has homosexual feelings/temptations but
does their best to steer clear of acting on them while living in
repentence can't be a "True" Christian?
- hamster - monitor
|
hamster,
you show your own hatred for God's word by denying the
Scriptures. Let us not play games here, God has reserved some of
the hottest parets of hell for them who take the grace of our
Lord Jesus Christ and turn it into laciviousness. LIke the
catholic priests who prey on young children, it is abominable
and perverse, and God's wrath falls upon such people and gives
them over to a reprobate mind, of which homosexuals are
mentioned explicitly in such a category.
" For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all
ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hinder the truth in
unrighteousness;
19. because that which is known of God is manifest in them; for
God manifested it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him since the creation of the
world are clearly seen, being perceived through the things that
are made, even his everlasting power and divinity; that they may
be without excuse:
21. because that, knowing God, they glorified him not as God,
neither gave thanks; but became vain in their reasonings, and
their senseless heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. and changed the glory of the incorruptible God for the
likeness of an image of corruptible man, and of birds, and
four-footed beasts, and creeping things.
24. Wherefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts unto
uncleanness, that their bodies should be dishonored among
themselves:
25. for that they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and
worshipped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who
is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile passions: for
their women changed the natural use into that which is against
nature:
27. and likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the
woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men
working unseemliness, and receiving in themselves that
recompense of their error which was due.
28. And even as they refused to have God in their knowledge, God
gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are
not fitting;
29. being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, strife,
deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30. backbiters, hateful to God, insolent, haughty, boastful,
inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. without understanding, covenant-breakers, without natural
affection, unmerciful:
32. who, knowing the ordinance of God, that they that practise
such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but also
consent with them that practise them. Rom. 1:18-32One: You are
wrong.
Christ died for all sinners. Homosexuality is a sin. If God
condemns to damnation every person with homosexual tendencies,
then he must do the same for every drunk, every adulterer and,
in fact, every sinner.
In which case Christ died in vain.
Your post is not only wrong; it is blasphemous.
- first sunday 33ad |
hamster,
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to
lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his
heart." matt 5:27-28
According to Christ lust and the act are one and the same, and
it is sinful to even look.
" And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by
the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good,
and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." Rom. 12:2
The reason you may be struggling in this area is because you are
not renewing your mind in the Scriptures. Now, whether you be a
brother in Christ or no I won't say, I am not your holy spirit.
The Scriptures says,
"For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the
flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the
Spirit.
6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually
minded is life and peace.
7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not
subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that
the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the
Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin;
but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead
dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also
quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to
live after the flesh.
13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye
through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall
live.
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the
sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to
fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we
cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we
are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs
with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be
also glorified together." Romans 8:5-17
It is only the Spirit of God that can confirm one is of Christ.
If you reject His word, then you are not of Christ.
- Steven
|
tizidale,
" But there were also false prophets among the people, just as
there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly
introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord
who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2. Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way
of truth into disrepute.
3. In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories
they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over
them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
4. For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent
them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for
judgment;" 2 Peter 2:1-4
Not everyone who says they are of Christ is of Christ, no more
than Judas Iscariot was a Christian. Now, you may think you are
slick because you think you came from some primordial soup, but
these religous people are ten times as slick; while you in your
feebleness try to tear down Creation, these people are sleeping
with your children all under the guise of 'relgious love'.
Homosexuality and these type of perversions are abominable in
God's eyes, but keep something in mind: if you reject Christ you
will appropriately spend eternity with these people.
Sincerely,
- Steven |
"We also know
that law is made not for the righteous but for lawbreakers and
rebels, the ungodly and sinful, the unholy and irreligious; for
those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
10. for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and
perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound
doctrine" 1 Tim. 1:9-10
"Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is
detestable. " Lev. 18:22
" If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of
them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death;
their blood will be on their own heads." Lev. 20:13
" Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools
23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made
to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with
one another.
25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and
served created things rather than the Creator--who is forever
praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even
their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations
with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men
committed indecent acts with other men, and received in
themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28. Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to
retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved
mind, to do what ought not to be done." Rom. 1:22-28Steven,
I need you to clarify something, although I'm pretty sure from
this thread of where you stand.
Is having an tendency toward homosexual feelings indicative of
being a non-Christian, and thus condemning to Hell? Or are only
those who act upon the temptation to engage in homosexual
activities (prolonged fantasies of the mind included) going to
Hell?
Pondering as usual, although I'll probably have a lot more to
say when you answer,
~Matt |
this is my
official answer:
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt
not commit adultery:
28. But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to
lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his
heart." matt 5:27-28
According to Christ lust and the act are one and the same, and
it is sinful to even look.
The Scriptures provide no loophole here and becuase God did not
provide a loophole in the Scripture then I am not going to try
to answer your questions, for I am not wiser than God.
- Steven
|
If you condemn a
Christian struggling with homosexual urges then to be consistant
you must condemn a Christian struggling with the urge to be
violent, the urge to drink, the urge to act in anger, etc.
You seem to be using scripture to say that people who have
sinful urges they can't control are doomed by virtue of the fact
that they have those urges
- hamster
|
hamster
Or know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the
kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor
idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
themselves with men,
10. nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye were washed, but ye were
sanctified, but ye were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus
Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.
12. All things are lawful for me; but not all things are
expedient. All things are lawful for me; but I will not be
brought under the power of any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall
bring to nought both it and them. But the body is not for
fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body:
14. and God both raised the Lord, and will raise up as through
his power.
15. Know ye not that your bodies are members of Christ? shall I
then take away the members of Christ, and make them members of a
harlot? God forbid.
16. Or know ye not that he that is joined to a harlot is one
body? for, The twain, saith he, shall become one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the
body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own
body.
Steven |
Okay, folks,
this is how it goes. Steven refuses to make a distinction
between
1. The Person who has Homosexual urges but struggles to overcome
them because they believe in Christ (e.g. Me)
2. The person who has homosexual urges and enjoys acting upon
them (e.g. .. I dunno, the guys that march in those parades)
When you ask him to make such a distinction he will pull up a
scripture describing Person 2, not Person 1.
- hamster |
I have the
perfect set of questions for you:
Do you struggle with any sin?
And if you do, do you realize your interpretation of the
Scriptures regarding homosexuals would require that whatever
sin you're struggling with will condemn you to Hell simply by
nature of your struggling with it?
Of course, don't read into what I'm saying and think that I
believe sinners will enter Heaven. I stand by 1 John 3:8-11 that
says Christians will lot live in habitual sin--Christians will
eventually conquer all sin in their lives.
~Matt inquisitorkind"I urge you, brothers, to watch out for
those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are
contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.
18. For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their
own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the
minds of naive people." Romans 16:17&18
"Every word of God is flawless; he is a
shield to those who take refuge in him. Do not add to his words, or he
will rebuke you and prove you a liar " Proverbs 30:5-6
- Steven |
| Steven, how
about actually interacting instead of assuming that your rather
flawed interpretation is intrinsic to the passages that you're
quoting?
- hamster |
| "Is not my word
like fire? saith Jehovah; and like a hammer that breaketh the
rock in pieces?" Jeremiah 23:29
- Steven |
inquisitor kind,
Heres your answer...
2 peter 2:1-7
1. But there arose false prophets also among the people, as
among you also there shall be false teachers, who shall privily
bring in destructive heresies, denying even the Master that
bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.
2. And many shall follow their lascivious doings; by reason of
whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of.
3. And in covetousness shall they with feigned words make
merchandise of you: whose sentence now from of old lingereth
not, and their destruction slumbereth not.
4. For if God spared not angels when they sinned, but cast them
down to hell, and committed them to pits of darkness, to be
reserved unto judgment;
5. and spared not the ancient world, but preserved Noah with
seven others, a preacher of righteousness, when he brought a
flood upon the world of the ungodly;
6. and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes
condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an example
unto those that should live ungodly;
7. and delivered righteous Lot, sore distressed by the
lascivious life of the wicked "
-Steven |
How can I be
like minded if you don't help explain your position? Don't make
me do all the work here...
~Matt |
| inquisitor kind,
12. For the word of God is living, and active, and sharper than
any two-edged sword, and piercing even to the dividing of soul
and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and quick to discern the
thoughts and intents of the heart. 13. And there is no creature
that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and
laid open before the eyes of him with whom we have to do."
Hebrews 4:12-13
"If anyone does not obey our instruction in this letter, take
special note of him. Do not associate with him, in order that he
may feel ashamed. 15. Yet do not regard him as an enemy, but
warn him as a brother." 2 Thess. 3:14&15
Eph. 5:6&7 "Let no man deceive you with
empty words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon
the sons of disobedience. 7. Be not ye therefore partakers with them;"
- Steven
|
| ***Okay, this
thread has diminished into repetitious bickering. I see nothing
of substance. I'll give it one more chance to return to topic.
If this is not done, the thread will be closed. Thank you.*** -
moderator |
| I'd be more
concerned with the heresy being preached than whther you deem it
bickering or not....
- Steven
|
| Does tweb and
it's members support homosexuality as being an abomination to
God?
God said in His word:
18. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness
and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19. Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God
hath shewed it unto them.
20. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are
clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his
eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21. Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God,
neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their
foolish heart was darkened.
22. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23. And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made
like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and
creeping things.
24. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of
their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served
the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their
women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27. And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman,
burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which
is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error
which was meet.
28. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God
gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not
convenient;
29. Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness,
covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit,
malignity; whisperers,
30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of
evil things, disobedient to parents,
31. Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection,
implacable, unmerciful:
32. Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things
are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them
that do them.
rom 1:18-32
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God?
Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor
effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified,
but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of
our God.
12. All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all
things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of
any.
13. Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy
both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord;
and the Lord for the body.
14. And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by
his own power.
15. Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then
take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God
forbid.
16. What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body?
for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.
17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body;
but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.
19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost
which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body,
and in your spirit, which are God's.
1 corinth. 6:9-20
Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.
23. Neither shalt thou lie with any beast to defile thyself therewith:
neither shall any woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is
confusion.
24. Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these
the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25. And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof
upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26. Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not
commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor
any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27. (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which
were before you, and the land is defiled;)
28. That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued
out the nations that were before you.
29. For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls
that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30. Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one
of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that
ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the Lord your God. lev. 18:20-30
12. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely
be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon
them.
13. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of
them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;
their blood shall be upon them. lev. 20:12-13
4. Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister
questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5. Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of
a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6. From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7. Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they
say, nor whereof they affirm.
8. But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9. Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for
the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy
and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for
manslayers,
10. For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for
menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other
thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1 tim. 1:4-10
The question is, is there anyone out there who would disagree with the
Scriptures that say that homosexuality is an abomination, including
theologyweb; I think it aught to be known which side we are on. Are we
on the side of continuing child molestors and homosexuals like the
catholics? Are we going to call this what the Scripture does:
abomination? Do we sin that Grace may abound? GOD FORBID.
"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may
abound?
2. God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
therein?
3. Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ
were baptized into his death?
4. Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as
Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so
we also should walk in newness of life.
5. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we
shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6. Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body
of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7. For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live
with him:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death
hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth,
he liveth unto God.
11. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but
alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey
it in the lusts thereof.
13. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto
sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the
dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God." rom.
6:1-13
God forbid, or literally, 'may it never be' the strongest Greek idiom of
the time for repudiating an argument. IN other words, even to the point
of outrage, against the grace of our Lord Jesus being turned into
laciviousness.
Let this be a defining moment, that you out there may be outraged,
through the Spirit of God, knowing that the Scriptures condemn this
behavior with the strongest type of language.
I will not converse with anyone who would defend homosexuality in any
way, except to quote the Holy Scriptures as a response. To even reply to
these shameful people, these spots on your love feasts, these clouds
with no rain, these haters of Christ, the very ones that drink the blood
of the saints, would be shameful to do.
Do you not know that bad company corrupts good judgement?
For it is shameful even to speak of what these people do in secret.
- Steven
www.informationgospel.net
|
| if i am barred
from the site and cannot respond to you, you'll know why.
What Hamster and others have been trying to tell is that we
don't comdemn a homosexual for having tendencies toward
homosexuality, but do condemn the acts of homosexuality, just as
we would any other sin. (Of course others may argue that
Christians would over look many sins and emphasize
homosexuality instead, but that wouldn't be representative of
the teachings of Christianity--that all sin separates us from
God--but that would be another discussion.)
If you're banned from this site, it'll probably be because all
you do is quote Scripture endlessly, possibly including a short
comment or jab at those you quote them against. Of course, we
can't really tell who
your quoting them against simply because you won't ever engage
the objections or even questions that people ask on your
threads.
What you do is quite similar to propaganda; keep spouting
unqualified statements and eventually some people are going to
start to believe.
- Matt |
I with Scripture
denounce all sexual sin. I also recognize that we all at one
time or another struggle with it. I agree with Hamster,and pray
that God gives us all the grace to overcome our struggles with
sin, no matter what the origin. We as Christians have done great
at condeming homosexual sin, while heterosexual sin has taken a
stronghold. Because heterosexuals far outnumber homosexuals, we
ought to be taking a pretty good look at the planks in our own
eye. Homosexuality is wrong. I have never ever shirked from
saying that, but do we condemn those who freely confess they
struggle, yet are resisting? No. Hamster is spot on.
And no Steven, you would not be booted from the site. Why? This
is a debate site, there are going to be difering points of view.
I like seeing the intra-Christian conversation going on rather
than just atheist/Christian dialog.
- deedee warren - site owner and moderator
|
If Romans 1 - 3
teach us anything it is that:
1. We are sinners just like them, even if we don't commit the
same things. Think of that list at 1.29-31. That means us.
Homosexuality is not worse, but it happens to be a sign of God's
wrath upon those who have turned away from God; but it is not
the only sign. Idolatry is too, 1.23, inordinate desires such as
greed are as bad, and is as much a sign of God's wrath..
2. They are to be pitied, just as all sinners are, and the
gospel ministered to them.
While homosexuality is condemned in the OT context of Israel's
covenant community, that does not necessarily translate into
21st century legislation, since Romans 1-3 intervenes in our
understanding. I get frustrated at listening to fundie right
wing condemnations of homosexuality, while other sins are
ignored, and the whole point of Paul's case is ignored: 3.21,22
but now, the righteousness of God without the law is
manifested...by faith of Jesus Christ.
Paul was not rejoicing over their sins, but bringing the answer
to their sins.
Why must we concentrate on the super visible sexual sins, and
ignore the others which more easily infect our churches and
spiritual lives.
- Solly - moderator |
| steven,
Your opinion is noted but I have to say
that the Bible, IMO, has very little to say on the subject of
homosexuality as it is defined and understood in the 21st century
and that surely is not too surprising given the pre-scientific nature of
the book.
- kiwimac |
| kiwi,
Well the Bible also just as clearly states
that homosexuals will not inherit the kingdom of heaven. So Kiwi you
have done a bait and switch. You have demonstrated the need for
Christian charity and parlayed that into charitable people are the ones
who make it into heaven. That is a non sequiter when we look at the
entirety of the Biblical text.- deedee warren
"Answer a fool as his folly deserves, That
he not be wise in his own eyes." Pr 26:5
Michael the muzicman |
Theology Web,
I have very much enjoyed posting on your site and I see a
definite purpose for this forum in the Body of Christ,
especially amongst those who love sound, Biblical theology.
However, I find the apparent lack of theologyweb's willingness
to condemn homosexuality publicly, as an abomination to God,
Biblically unacceptable. “ Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as
with womankind: it is abomination. 23. Neither shalt thou lie
with any beast to defile thyself therewith: neither shall any
woman stand before a beast to lie down thereto: it is
confusion.” (Lev. 18:22-23)
This issue of homosexuality is categorically intolerant against
the Word of God and a state of mind that God has condemned as
being 'given over to a reprobate mind'; it is the Biblical
paramount of utter degredation and perversion. “ If a man also
lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have
committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death;
their blood shall be upon them.” (Lev. 20:13)
If you are wanting to be successful, that is successful in good,
sound theology, this is a doctrine the Church has held to for
over 2000 years; it is only in the last 30 years or so that
opinions have changed as far as homosexuality being an
abomination to God, as a result of culture pressure, feminism,
desecrated doctrine and homosexual priests, among other things.
If your success is based on good, Biblical theology, I would
highly recommend re-evaluating whom you have as monitors and
what they say publicly. I will not participate in any way with
anyone who gives child molestors, bestiality or homosexuals any
credence in the Church; it is absolutely contrary to Scripture,
and we who are in Christ are convinced of this. “Now I beseech
you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences
contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18. For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but
their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the
hearts of the simple.” (Rom. 16:17-18)
Let me clarify something about the deliberate mendacity that the
person who calls himself ‘hamster’ brought up, regarding
homosexual 'struggles' in the mind being different than the
actual act: this premise cannot be justified by the Scriptures
and has no place among the Body of Christ, indeed it justifies
the very act. “Ye have heard that it was said by them of old
time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: 28. But I say unto you,
That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath
committed adultery with her already in his heart.” (Mathew
5:27-28)
Lasciviousness is defined by Scripture as: “ And he said, That
which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. 21. For from
within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts,
adulteries, fornications, murders, 22. Thefts, covetousness,
wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy,
pride, foolishness: 23. All these evil things come from within,
and defile the man.” (Mark 7:20-23), “ Now the works of the
flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication,
uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred,
variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21.
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of
the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time
past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the
kingdom of God.” (Gal.5:19-21)
I have spent many years preaching in San Francisco and have
heard this argument from the world and the reprobate many times,
to justify homosexual thoughts and to call upon ‘grace’ when one
would defile himself repeatedly. “What shall we say then? Shall
we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2. God forbid. How
shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”
(Romans
6:1-2)
Paul condemns using the Grace of our Lord this way with the
strongest Greek idiom of the time for repudiating an argument,
God Forbid, literally ‘may it never be’.
I have worked with Christians who have come out of that
background, whose testimonies, not to mention the Scriptures,
prove that hamster’s statement does NOT pertain to Biblical
thinking. I refuse to answer questions that are merely a
deflection of chicanery away from a very orthodox point which
has been in the church for 2000 years, about homosexuality,
which the Scripture openly condemns as abominable to God, a sin
that is capable of and has in the past provoked God's wrath.
“Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for
God hath shewed it unto them.20. For the invisible things of
him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being
understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power
and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: 21. Because that,
when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were
thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their
foolish heart was darkened. 22. Professing themselves to be
wise, they became fools, 23. And changed the glory of the
uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man,
and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. 24.
Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts
of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
themselves: 25. Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and
worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is
blessed for ever. Amen. 26. For this cause God gave them up unto
vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use
into that which is against nature: 27. And likewise also the
men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust
one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly,
and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which
was meet. 28. And even as they did not like to retain God in
their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do
those things which are not convenient; 29. Being filled with all
unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness,
maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity;
whisperers, 30. Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud,
boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, 31.
Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural
affection, implacable, unmerciful: 32. Who knowing the judgment
of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death,
not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.”
(Romans 1:18-32)
The Scriptures make clear that no one in Christ will be
participating in this perversity, period, whether in the mind or
the body; the Scriptures overrule any opinions, thoughts,
feeling and human reasonings that are contrary to the word of
God. “Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing
the scriptures, nor the power of God.” (Matt. 22:29)
To be silent on this issue is to agree with someone who has, out
of their own perversions and lusts, side-stepped the issue and
refused to back up their point from Scripture. “16. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly
furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim. 3:16-17
“But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do
gender strifes. 24. And the servant of the Lord must not strive;
but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25. In
meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God
peradventure will give them
repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26. And that they
may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are
taken captive by him at his will.” (2 Tim. 2:23-26)
Theology Web, whomever you be, if this ministry's passion is for
the edification of the Body of Christ and those who do scholarly
work and hold to sound doctrine, then re-consider your position
in light of the Scriptures, understanding that God struck down
entire cities, men women and children as a result of these type
of perversions. “and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah
into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, having made them an
example unto those that should live ungodly.” (2 peter 2:6); and
at this, He was merely ‘winking’ at their sins, but now calls
every man everywhere to repent. “And the times of this ignorance
God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31. Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge
the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained;
whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath
raised him from the dead.” (Acts 17:30-31)
If you do not take a stand on this you will have been one
responsible for allowing the Church, the Body of Christ, to be
corrupted by this abominable sycophant and think not that God's
wrath will shrink from your ministry, for he promises wrath to
the wicked, especially those who take a form of godliness and
allow lasciviousness. “For the wrath of God is revealed from
heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who
hold the truth in unrighteousness;” Rom 1:18
To end I quote from Paul, the chief apostle, the apostle to the
gentiles, the writer inspired by God Himself, who wrote more of
the New Testament than anyone else, and who spoke directly
regarding the unrepentant, religious, unsaved, lascivious,
envious, striving, wrathful, backbiters, and whisperers: “Again,
think ye that we excuse ourselves unto you? we speak before God
in Christ: but we do all things, dearly beloved, for your
edifying. 20. For I fear, lest, when I come, I shall not find
you such as I would, and that I shall be found unto you such as
ye would not: lest there be debates, envyings, wraths, strifes,
backbitings, whisperings, swellings, tumults: 21. And lest, when
I come again, my God will humble me among you, and that I shall
bewail many which have sinned already, and have not repented of
the uncleanness and fornication and lasciviousness which they
have committed.”
- Steven
|
Steven:
I have only had minimal contact with you on this website, but I
have read many of your posts. I think that InquisitorKind
said it best. From the posts I have read from you I have found
this to generally be the case.
Now several people have responded to your question and your
latest post makes me believe your completely missed the points
they made.
Here it is going right over your head.... - Russ Steadale |
"...........all you do is quote Scripture endlessly"
"What you do is quite similar to propaganda;"
Thank you very much! This truly is a high compliment; yes, I am
a propogandist of faith!
" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith,
Lord, who hath believed our report?
17. So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of
God." (Romans 10:16-17)
Through Scriptures I most accurately get my 'message' across.
"The message of the Gospel is foolishness to them who are
perishing, but to us who believe it is the Power of God."
Let's face it, there are those who love the Scriptures and then
there are those who hate it and are born to mock.
Thanks again!
- Steven |
What!?
Aside from that being false, what about the other sins that
Romans mentions? Such as.... unrighteousness, sexual immorality,
wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, envyness, murder,
strife, deceit, evil habits, secret slanders, backbiting,
hateful to God, insolence, haughtiness, boastfulness, evil
inventions, disobedience to parents, without natural affection,
unforgiving, unmercifulness, etc? - crisimecrisime |
WARNING: THIS MAY CONTAIN BIBLICAL MANIFESTO PROPOGANDA
Do you find pauls words false? I used pauls words, among others.
If a person is continually, habitually practising this type of
behavior then he is not of Christ.
What about the other sins listed? Aside from the fact that
homosexuality was the issue of discussion, the people who
practise those things as well will not be in the Kingdom either:
fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft,
hatred...etc.
This should not be so hard to understand, unles you are doing
one or more of these things... then I could see why your teeth
would be gnashing.
"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20. Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath,
strife, seditions, heresies,
21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like:
of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time
past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the
kingdom of God." gal 5:19-21
'practice such things' in other versions, practice is in the
Greek 'prasso', a primary verb; to "practice", i.e. perform
repeatedly or habitually.
I truly hope you find comfort in these Scriptures.
- Steven |
Steven refuses to adress anything I've said. Yet he continues
lying about what I've said. I have not defended
homosexual behavior nor will he be able to produce a quote of me
producing homosexual behavior.
How could I defend homosexual behavior at the same time
as
struggling not to enage in it? If it was defensible, why
would I struggle to avoid it? Hello? Is this thing on?
Are the readers of this thread clear on that? I just don't want
Steven to give the wrong impression of what I have really
been saying.
- hamster |
| Steven you have
been unfair to Hamster and engaging in unfair representations of
this website. Hamster has declared homosexuality to be Biblical
sin as have I. I doubt you can declare that you have never had
an impure thought about a woman. Well if you are going to
condemn a homosexual for having thoughts that he gives over to
Christ and does not act on them then Paul's words are
appropriate... "for in which you judge another, you condemn
yourself." There is no man here on this board that has not had
impure thought. Then they are an adulterer in their heart
forgiven by the grace of God, just as a homosexual in their
heart can be. I praise God for His awesome grace, He has
forgiven me so much in thought and deed.
- deedee warren |
Homosexuality is
a sin. It is immoral, as is every other sin. Can I be more
blatant than that? -jaltusI think he is expecting a 24 page 10
pt. font single space declaration of exactly how you really feel
about homosexuality. - yxboomI found it simpler to ignore him
frankly
Kiwimac |
OK, hamster...
if you feel shame about this then there is a good way to clarify
yourself: publicly come out as a monitor and openly admit that
homosexuality is an abomination to God and that Christians do
not practise it in any way.
Likewise, Dee Dee, you need to come out (or if there is a man
over you then he needs to come out) and state that theology web
considers homosexuality as an abomination to God and that
Christians do not, in any way, practise homosexuality, according
to the Scriptures.
If you are both willing to come out and admit this as
Bible-believing Christians, as the Body of Christ has held for
thousands of years, I'd be more than willing to retract any
personal names mentioned.
May the Lord give you wisdom here at this crossroad.
- Steven
Teaching us that, denying
ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly,
righteously, and godly, in this present world;
13. Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of
the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;
14. Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all
iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of
good works.
15. These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all
authority. Let no man despise thee."
Titus 2:12-15
PS: Hamster in regard to your struggles, a piece of advice; if
you are not married then get married. If you are married then be
satisfied with the wife God has given you. |
| "Nevertheless,
to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let
every woman have her own husband. 3. Let the husband render unto
the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the
husband." 1 corinthians 7:2-3
Um, Steven, you sure do need to reaquaint yourself with how
marriage works. While that is good advice per se, a small hint
of compassion would do wonders for how you come off. - jaltusAre
you hard of reading? I speak for myself and not for the website
for one thing. This is not a doctrinal machine, but a discussion
forum. The only official positions taken by the site are the
essentials of the Christian faith articulated in our mission
statement. But for myself, I have told you both publically and
privately that homosexuality is a sin (and all sin is an
abomination) condemned by the Scritpures and is not to be
practiced by Christians. You seem to have trouble comprehending
those words. Ironically the nonbelievers here have had no
problem understanding my position or my words.
It appears that Steven is claiming that he never has had an
impure thought about a woman who is not his wife. Does anyone
believe that? - dee dee warren |
Did you read
that post Steven? Steven? Are you there? Are you reading the
posts?
The answers lie within the posts.......Ill give you a
hint.........The answer is between the first and last word
contained in the post.
- Russ steadale |
| I think Steven
is holding out on us - yxboom - monitor |
I now know where
you stand and where theology web stands. Thank you.
- Steven |
You know Steve,
I do not disagree with much of what you have said. But a
question was asked (or suggested) that you did not answer. Are
YOU sinless? In thought and deed? What about sins of omission? -
seerseer, for once I agree 100% with you.
What was that verse about, "stand not near me, I am holier than
thou?" - solly |
| monitorseer,
Absolutely not. I am saved by grace
through faith like everyone else. I am born into sin like every
man. for someone even to make such a ludicrous statement is out
of the bounds of normal thinking; i never made such a statement
nor indicated such a thing. - Steven
|
Final Post:
Hamster I have waited 24 hours for you to come out and clarify
yourself, since posting the below excerpt:
“OK, hamster... if you feel shame about this then there is a
good way to clarify yourself: publicly come out as a monitor and
openly admit that homosexuality is an abomination to God and
that Christians do not practice it in any way.”
You have made several posts since then but you not clarified
this issue but left it hanging and I will not retract my
statements. Instead you had to have Dee Dee, as if she was your
mommy, come out and defend you, along with the mariachi band.
On top of this, Dee Dee did give a partial truth but immediately
took it away as if to compare homosexuality with every other
sin, purposefully overlooking the subject that the scriptures
say homosexuals will be going to hell, and that a believer in
Christ will not continue in homosexuality period.
Under board etiquette, the rules state: “Please respect the
wishes of the thread starter to keep a thread on topic” I posted
two threads on the same question of a particular point of
homosexuality, one casually and the other to theology web. Both
times you repeatedly went off topic, setting up your straw man,
then accused me of not responding to you when I stuck with my
original thread.
Dee Dee said, “I have told you both publically and privately
that homosexuality is a sin (and all sin is an abomination)
condemned by the Scritpures and is not to be practiced by
Christians.”
She also said, “It appears that Steven is claiming that he never
has had an impure thought about a woman who is not his wife.
Does anyone believe that?”
Now, this is a lie; I never said anything remotely close to
that. I am a sinner saved by the grace of Christ, but I will say
I do not practice these behaviors, nor would I degrade myself in
discussing such thoughts in public, for fear of stumbling
someone, which due to the tenacity that you clung to your
un-biblical straw-man, seems to be your intent, hamster.
It was never my intent to attribute all of the lasciviousness
mentioned in my posts to you, singular, but merely to your
argument. My hope was that you would universally announce that
homosexuality is indeed an abomination to God, that believers do
not practice it.
To the Administrator of this site, dee dee, hamster and the
mariachi band, I warn you in Christ as a fellow servant, to
confess and repent of playing slight-of-hand with the Scriptures
to somehow justify turning the grace of our Lord into
lasciviousness. On one hand you concede that homosexuality is a
‘sin’, but on the other hand you take it away by saying ‘like
every other sin’, as if it was some common sin in Christendom;
nothing is further from the truth. This is the type of behavior
that calls God’s wrath down.
“Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like
manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after
strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the
vengeance of eternal fire. 8. Likewise also these filthy
dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of
dignities. 9. Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with
the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring
against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke
thee. 10. But these speak evil of those things which they know
not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those
things they corrupt themselves. 11. Woe unto them! for they have
gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of
Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core. 12.
These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with
you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without
water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth,
without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13. Raging
waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars,
to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.” Jude
1:7-13
(I would encourage you to look at every thread posted here in
light of Scripture, that you may make an informed judgment, one
based upon the noble, Holy words of God.)
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these;
Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, 20.
Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath,
strife, seditions, heresies, 21. Envyings, murders, drunkenness,
revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I
have also told you in time past, that they which do such things
shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” Galations 5:19-21
(Please note verse 21, where those who do such things will not
inherit the Kingdom of God; view this in light of hamster's and
dee dee’s statements. The people spoken of here are not
believers.)
“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom
of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with
mankind, 10. Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor
revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are
sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus,
and by the Spirit of our God. 12. All things are lawful unto me,
but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me,
but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13. Meats for
the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both
it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the
Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14. And God hath both raised up
the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15. Know
ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then
take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an
harlot? God forbid. 16. What? know ye not that he which is
joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one
flesh. 17. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.
18. Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the
body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own
body. 19. What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the
Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not
your own? 20. For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify
God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.” 1
Corinthians 6:9-20
(Please note verse 11, that such were some of you, but you were
washed, you no longer practice these things.)
“The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the
godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by
their wickedness, 19. since what may be known about God is plain
to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20. For since
the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal
power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being
understood from what has been made, so that men are without
excuse. 21. For although they knew God, they neither glorified
him as God nor gave thanks to him, but
their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were
darkened. 22. Although they claimed to be wise, they became
fools 23. and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images
made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24. Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their
hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with
one another. 25. They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and
worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator--who
is forever praised. Amen.
26. Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even
their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27.
In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with
women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed
indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due
penalty for their perversion. 28. Furthermore, since they did
not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave
them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29. They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil,
greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife,
deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30. slanderers, God-haters,
insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil;
they disobey their parents; 31. they are senseless, faithless,
heartless, ruthless. 32. Although they know God's righteous
decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not
only continue to do these very things but also approve of those
who practice them.” Romans 1:18-32
(Please look for hamster's argument where believers are still
struggling with these specific sins which are know only to
unrepentant unbelievers. IN fact the context of hamster's
argument cannot be found anywhere in Scripture. Romans 7 does
not legitimize hamsters arguments for the simple reason that
homosexuality is a practice of UNbelievers, and romans 7 was
speaking of Paul the apostle, a believer in Christ. That is why
hamster had to resort to his own personal testimony, as if to
give credence over the Scriptures. The Scriptures say to beware
of these type of people.)
“Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain
deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the
world, and not after Christ.” Colossians 2:8
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them that are causing the
divisions and occasions of stumbling, contrary to the doctrine
which ye learned: and turn away from them. 18. For they that are
such serve not our Lord Christ, but their own belly; and by
their smooth
and fair speech they beguile the hearts of the innocent.” Romans
16:17-18
“ 3. If any man teacheth a different doctrine, and consenteth
not to sound words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and
to the doctrine which is according to godliness; 4. he is puffed
up, knowing nothing, but doting about questionings and disputes
of words,
whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, 5.
wranglings of men corrupted in mind and bereft of the truth,
supposing that godliness is a way of gain. 6. But godliness with
contentment is great gain: 7. for we brought nothing into the
world, for neither can we carry anything out” 1 Tim. 6:3-7
“Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer
persecution. 13. But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and
worse, deceiving, and being deceived. 14. But continue thou in
the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of,
knowing of
whom thou hast learned them; 15. And that from a child thou hast
known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise
unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. 16. All
scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness: 17. That the man of God may be perfect, throughly
furnished unto all good works.” 2 Tim. 3:12- 17
(We should keep the above verses in mind when affronted with
profane men who like to rely on their own words, verses the
words of Christ. They often attempt to make spoil of the
righteous through personal attacks, lies and hypocrisy. They
love a scandal and take pleasure in discrediting the righteous,
all the while shrouding themselves in false humility.) If
you have a legitimate question, from the Scriptures, or you feel
stumbled by the tomfoolery of the charade put on by the
leadership of this site, then you can contact me here at this
site: www.informationgospel.net
- Steven
This is my final statement on this subject at Theology Web.
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